Seven questions with Sophia Sacal

¿Qué lengua habla el viento? by Fernando Barreto, at "De, desde, en, entre, hacia..." art show, Woolwich, London.

We're thrilled to have Sophia Sacal, the curator behind the exhibition "De, desde, en, entre, hacia" at SET Woolwich London, here with us for an interview. So sit back, relax, and get ready to hear about her curatorial project, personal journey, and why identities matter today. Let's get this started.

1. Before diving into the details of the exhibition, give us a quick lowdown on yourself and how your background shapes your curatorial approach in this exhibition.

Hello, first of all thanks for having me here! I’m Sophia Sacal, art historian, curator and director of an experimental space based in Mexico City called “el recinto”. My mother is an artist and art historian herself, so my life has gravitated around art since I was a child. For the longest time, though, I wanted to be a marine biologist and a writer. I’m a double Scorpio with my moon in Piscis, so it’s no wonder I needed to be close to the water. I eventually settled on Art History because I’m very much a nerd and I was interested in going into a field that could allow me to research widely different topics from a myriad of angles. My forever-favorite questions to ask have to do with processes regarding the construction of identities and how this is grounded in artistic expressions such as jewelry, ceramics or tapestries. I’m obsessed with material culture and object-oriented ontology, as well as decolonial theorists Rolando Vázquez and Silvia Rivera Cusicanqui. My academic queries are always intersected by matters that affect me personally, particularly those concerning the body: how it moves, how it expresses desire, how it transforms under pressing circumstances.  

"De, desde, en, entre, hacia..." art show, Woolwich, London.

"De, desde, en, entre, hacia..." art show, Woolwich, London.

2. Are you currently based in Mexico? Why did you choose London as the location for this exhibition? Was there any specific reason behind picking this city?

"Haptic chant" by Rebeca Romero at "De, desde, en, entre, hacia..." art show, Woolwich, London.

I am! “el recinto” is a nomadic project that has had iterations in Mexico City and Oaxaca, so all the work I’ve done has been pretty local. The idea for “De, desde, en, entre, hacia” was born a year ago out of a coincidental encounter with José García Oliva at SOMA, an educational institution in Mexico City where we were both doing some work. We started talking about relational and socially-engaged art, and about the lack of representation of Latin American artists following this course of action in England. We spoke about the possibility of putting on a show in London sometime in the next few years; the opportunity came a couple of months after, when SET —a multifaceted arts and community organisation based in numerous centres across London— released an open call for exhibitions at their Kensington space. I did some research into SET and found that we share a lot of values, starting with the fact that both of our projects strive to resignify abandoned buildings. I applied with a rough idea of what I wanted this exhibition to be like, and it was accepted. A lot has changed since then, but has remained untouched is the initial wish to bring visibility to the artistic Latinx scene in London.

3. The exhibition's title, "De, desde, en, entre, hacia" might intrigue some non-Spanish speakers. How would you quickly explain its significance and how it relates to the themes explored in the project?

“De, desde, en, entre, hacia” are some of the most-commonly used prepositions in Spanish; they are words that are meant to denote a relationship between objects and subjects. When framed as questions, they give way for an exploration of our bodies in relation to the surrounding world:  “¿De qué cuerpos hablamos?” “¿Desde dónde nos constituimos?” “¿En qué circuitos nos movemos?” “¿Entre qué territorios nos encontramos?” “¿Hacia qué idea de mundo accionamos?”Translating the prepositions to make the title more legible was not an option. It was crucial that the exhibition’s title be in Spanish and that people make the effort to pronounce it. It speaks of an urgent need to programme artistic initiatives from within the Latinx communities. Everything ends and begins with language — especially relationships, which are at the core of this endeavour.

"Asosiación para acariciar lo acariciable" by Lucia R. at "De, desde, en, entre, hacia..." art show, Woolwich, London.

4. Bridging geographical and affective distances can be tricky. Reaching and engaging with diverse Latinx communities in London sounds challenging. Now that some time has passed since the opening, how do you feel about your engagement with the Latinx communities? Do you think you achieved what you set out to do?

I’m really glad you’re asking me this, because it gives way to a conversation that has been going around my head for the past couple of weeks: the jump between theory and practice. Before I go on, I’d like to point out that the exhibition and public programme were organised virtually, since the artists and myself were all living in different latitudes: some of us were working from our native countries, others doing temporary residencies abroad and still others living in the cities they had migrated to years ago. Everything we conceptualised at a distance since most of us had never even set foot at SET. The public programme and its goal to engage with Latinx communities was also a product of theoretical imaginations, though we did have a specific strategy to bring it into life. A couple of months before the opening, I got in touch with 10 institutions that provide services for the Latinx communities in London in order to create a network that could help me broadcast our project. They all agreed to help spread the word about both the exhibition and the public programme, which seemed like a sturdy first step on our way to connecting with the communities. However, I think I relied too heavily on this type of communication and in the end, it was not enough to get people to come all the way to Woolwich. And of course, it makes sense. Most Latin Americans in London are working-class and are tired after long workdays; most don’t want to spend their leisure time visiting art exhibitions or taking their kids to workshops across the city.

"Al final de la cosecha, vi una llamada" by José García Oliva at "De, desde, en, entre, hacia..." art show, Woolwich, London.

There are so many factors to consider when one ventures into the socially-engaged field of art. This is where that abyss between theory and practice comes up, I believe. It is easy to programme activities that seem alluring to the artistic and pedagogic world; it is another to actually have your target audience show up and get involved with what you’re doing. I realise that immersive fieldwork must be carried out many months in anticipation and that hands-on praxis must come before any theorisation. Luckily, you can never go wrong with the old-school way of doing certain things, such as flyering. When we saw that social media wasn’t being a useful tool, we set out to the streets of Peckham and Elephant & Castle to invite people to come to the two dancing rooms we hosted at SET Social. We received the support of local businesses and even got a couple offers to organize events in the future, meaning that our goal to engage with the Latinx communities wasn’t entirely a failure, but rather a lesson in how to better achieve this over longer periods of time, with more sustained commitment and involvement.

"Todos los puntos de la aguja" by Fernanda Barreto at "De, desde, en, entre, hacia..." art show, Woolwich, London.

5. You commented: "We need identity because we need to have a space from which to rethink and reimagine our own representation." Considering that, what specifically inspired you to dive into the transterritorial identities of the artists you invited to participate?

Selecting the artists was a complex process, since the parameters varied depending on the person. I was definitely looking for creative practitioners who had an affectiveconnection with Latin America, but the country they came from, their gender expression or their socioeconomic context were not boxes I was seeking to tick. I was interested in bringing together multiple approaches to the body and to identity within a migratory backdrop. The medium itself was not a decisive factor, but rather the methodological or conceptual proposal each artist was putting forth. I chose artists whose understanding of transterritoriality both strengthens and questions mine: the ten people whose works are presented in the show have expanded my definition of “territory” and together, we have worked around the concept of affective territories, which are inhabited both corporeal and emotionally.

6. “De, desde..” seems to be a lot about open dialogues and the co-production of knowledge. Based on that, can you dive deeper into the tension between authority and liberty when facilitating these discussions?

Going back once again to the conversation on the gap between theory and practice, I think that the notion of “open dialogues” is one that is becoming quite popular nowadays, much like “community,” “collectivity” and “horizontality” have in the past few years. It seems that everyone in the art world wants to work collectively, use horizontal logics and develop non-hierarchical structures. Naturally, this is much easier said than done. Sustaining the tension between liberty and authority in a discussion is all about negotiation: it is about having the power to redirect the conversation when it is steering off into unwanted directions but also about knowing how not to take up all the space. It is about encouraging the participants to delve deeper into those uncomfortable subjects while maintaining a safe, comfortable environment where both knowledge and experiences may be shared. To me, a successful session of discussion is one in which there is no shying away from contradictions, as long as we are all in the mutual understanding that there isn’t one Truth that reigns above all else. There are tiny truths we all cling to — and they can coexist together, even if they’re quite contradictory.

7. Curatorial processes always come with their fair share of memorable moments. Is there any fun experience to share from organising this project?

"De, desde, en, entre, hacia..." art show, Woolwich, London.

Many! The most memorable so far is probably the karaoke night we had right after the opening. Most of the people had already left and the last ones remaining were our friends, both new and old. We turned the projection room into a karaoke bar, playing Spanish ballads and even some Japanese romantic classics, courtesy of Alesh, the art handler at SET.

8. How do you plan to keep the ball rolling after the exhibition ends? Any exciting future plans?

Yes! I’ve got some things already lined up but I’m giving myself a rest first! I’m going back to Mexico City in August, where I’ll begin the process of re-editing the first version of the exhibition’s catalog we published in the form of a fanzine. I will sort through the archive that was gathered throughout the six months prior to the show and include all of the new content that was created during the project, incorporating fragments of conversations, notes, images and texts written both by visitors and the artists themselves. I’m also starting to make plans to bring the exhibition to Latin America next summer, giving myself enough time to recover, recharge batteries and keep going.